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Mr. S
HERMAN
. I don’t know who else——yes, Ms. Cao, you have 
a——
Ms. C
AO
. Just a few weeks ago, very recently, the Chinese stu-
dent association at Columbia University was shut down by the uni-
versity and the reason they gave is that, well, they broke some 
rules. And I recently, just last week, I talked to a Reuters reporter, 
I urged him to dig deeper, because I believe it is likely, very likely 
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91
there is something else, not just leaving food after their events or 
something like that. 
Mr. S
HERMAN
. That is so unusual at an American university. If 
you were to shut down the Albanian students organization at 
UCLA, the whole campus would erupt. 
Mr. Daly, what can U.S. campuses do to ensure that Chinese stu-
dents are not only protected from this intimidation or observation, 
but are actually encouraged to break the pots of the Chinese Com-
munist Party? 
Mr. D
ALY
. They can do very little directly. There have always 
been organized——
Mr. S
HERMAN
. Well, let’s back up a little bit. They send the kids 
here to study STEM. Can we require at all our universities, if you 
are here to study STEM, you have to take one or two courses where 
you may read the writing——
Mr. D
ALY
. American universities all have distribution require-
ments, they have general education requirements. What American 
campuses can do is be American campuses. Where is our con-
fidence? Yes, there are attempts by the consulates and the Embas-
sies to infiltrate Communist Party cells——
Mr. S
HERMAN
. So you don’t have U.S. universities saying: Hey, 
we really want the Chinese money. We will let students come here. 
We will give them some sort of certificate. They can take nothing 
but math and science. 
Mr. D
ALY
. American universities provide the opportunity, the en-
vironment, and all of the stimuli that are the best antidote to ev-
erything the Chinese Communist Party is attempting to do. 
Mr. S
HERMAN
. Unless they are willing to provide programs de-
signed with the interests of the PRC in mind. Are there univer-
sities that, regardless of the breadth requirements they have for 
their U.S. students, either have some certificate program or degree 
program designed to teach STEM to Chinese students without ex-
posing them? I see Dr. Martin is saying no. 
I realize no for your own campus. Does that apply to every cam-
pus you are aware of? Is there any university in this country that 
is saying: Come here, bring your Chinese dollars, study math and 
science and technology, and you can leave, and you don’t have to 
take a course in politics, humanities, anything like that? 
Ms. M
ARTIN
. Sir, I don’t have the vast knowledge to be able to 
answer. 
Mr. S
HERMAN
. But have you heard of any such example? 
Ms. M
ARTIN
. However, every single institution of higher edu-
cation is governed and accredited by a regional accrediting body to 
whom we have to answer. And as such, we provide this accrediting 
body a list of all of our programs and they approve it. Within those 
programs, as was stated earlier, there are the general education 
programs that include your English, your sciences, your mathe-
matics, your humanities, your social sciences. 
Mr. S
HERMAN
. So there is no certificate somebody can earn with-
out those breadth requirements? 
Ms. M
ARTIN
. A certificate is a specialized series of courses in a 
specific area. And so the answer would be, certainly it could be de-
signed, but I am not aware. It wouldn’t be a degree. 
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92
Mr. S
HERMAN
. Let me just make a comment. I am concerned 
with Chinese money influencing American thought. I think the 
number one problem is the corporate sector where hundreds of bil-
lions of dollars are made and lobbyists for the benefit of China de-
scend upon this place and descend upon the media, particularly the 
business cable channels, with an amount of power that far exceeds 
our influence in China. 
I know some of you said we have got the soft power way beyond 
what they do. That is true if you just ignore money, lobbying, and 
the effect of money on cable television and think tanks. If you just 
ignore money and focus only on the academia, then you would say 
that we have got the soft power and they don’t. 
And then finally, as I mentioned, when China controls a big 
chunk of the movie theaters in the United States, they control or 
influence what studios will choose to make, and those of you who 
are looking for a second Gere movie on Tibet will have to look at 
just some movie that is, like, made for cable. It will not be a theat-
rical run. 
With that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for these hearings. I know 
that you have some additional questions. 
Mr. S
MITH
. Thank you, Mr. Sherman. 
Ms. M
ARTIN
. Mr. Chairman, if I could just say something. While 
I am not able to speak on behalf of every single institution of high-
er education as to what course of study they may or may not have 
or what certificate they may or may not have, I believe that I can 
speak on behalf of every institution in this country to the fact that 
the academic integrity of our programs highlight and dictate who 
we are as an academic institution. And speaking for them, and cer-
tainly on behalf of Fort Hays State University, no amount of money 
will ever be able to be given to me to sacrifice the name or the 
credibility of my institution or those of higher education in the 
United States. 
Thank you. 
Mr. S
MITH
. Just a couple of final questions, and again I thank 
you for the generosity of your time as well this afternoon. 
Mr. Lehman, I am encouraged when you say the seven taboos, 
there is not a concern. I think I am concerned that surveillance can 
be very, very ubiquitous. It could be everywhere. 
When Frank Wolf and I made our way over to the PRC, to Bei-
jing, immediately prior to the Olympics, we brought with us a pris-
oners list that the Congressional-Executive Commission on China, 
which I chair, had put together, a very extensive list, as you know, 
that really goes to great depth. It is one of the best prisoners lists 
I have ever seen. It is updated constantly, combed to make sure 
that it is accurate. 
And while Congressman Wolf and I were in the Embassy van, it 
is the only time we talked about this, we talked about, kiddingly, 
going to Tiananmen Square, because we were on our way to an-
other meeting, and unfurling a banner that called for human 
rights. Twenty minutes to twenty-five minutes later the U.S. Em-
bassy got a phone call saying that if Smith and Wolf unfurl the 
human rights banner at Tiananmen Square—which was a fiction, 
we were talking to each other, and we did make one phone call in 
which we mentioned it as well—we would be immediately escorted 
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